Editing Talk:Alleged Campus Safety Misconduct
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− | == A page for baseless allegation? == | + | === A page for baseless allegation? === |
It seems someone else edited this article before I could type this or make my own edit (and the editing needs to be worked on a bit, in fact--it's stylistically all over the place), but what's the point of this entry? Is there some justifiable reason to document a list of unsubstantiated, baseless allegations just to have "a different spin?" "Spin" is, of course, precisely the appropriate term, it seems to me. | It seems someone else edited this article before I could type this or make my own edit (and the editing needs to be worked on a bit, in fact--it's stylistically all over the place), but what's the point of this entry? Is there some justifiable reason to document a list of unsubstantiated, baseless allegations just to have "a different spin?" "Spin" is, of course, precisely the appropriate term, it seems to me. | ||
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I'm recommending this article for deletion, and I urge you to strongly consider that recommendation. | I'm recommending this article for deletion, and I urge you to strongly consider that recommendation. | ||
− | ===Discussion on deletion proposal=== | + | ====Discussion on deletion proposal==== |
Obviously this is going to require the weighing-in of more of the community than just me before any action is taken (Guys? Weigh in.), but I'll offer my perspective. The Wiki Fire was not created to be some innocuous toy - that should be made clear. The Wiki Fire has, as the original proposal noted, the goal of informing the community. Part of this involves cutting through the opacity of the different institutions of the college, whether it's Campus Safety or Student Senate or whatever. The purpose of this page, as I understand it, was to act as a sort of clearinghouse for concerns about Campus Safety misconduct. As the original proposal for deletion (and the related comments added to the content page) suggests, some and perhaps all of the allegations lack firm evidence. The onus of providing that evidence rests on the original posters; that they did not provide it is not surprising (given the nature of the forum and of the institutional disadvantage at which those subject to institutional sanction by law enforcement are placed with regard to evidence of misconduct) but it is also not required. I think the contributor who proposed deletion rebutted the allegations with great vigor, and that is the sort of thing that this page, in my mind, should include: not merely allegations, but a critical reflection, both on the allegations and on those against whom these things are alleged. Indeed, the Code of Ethics from which the proposer quoted does not really handle this directly; but that document, like everything else on this site, is subject to critical reflection and reform (that's the point of a wiki format). I think it's obvious that the page in discussion here needs to be more strongly disclaimed to ensure that these are taken merely as the allegations of those who post, and not as claims substantiated through TWF or Knox College administration. I think also that it should be reformatted as a discussion-like page, where there is an existing position under each allegation for rebuttal, discussion, and the like. I do not think, however, that it should be deleted, because it provides precisely the kind of forum that Knox needs on issues that are difficult to discuss within the existing institutional framework. I also think that the Code of Ethics should be revised to incorporate this type of discourse and content page and provide guidelines for its management. What does everybody else think? [[User:Camozzi|Camozzi]] 20:56, 14 June 2008 (CDT) | Obviously this is going to require the weighing-in of more of the community than just me before any action is taken (Guys? Weigh in.), but I'll offer my perspective. The Wiki Fire was not created to be some innocuous toy - that should be made clear. The Wiki Fire has, as the original proposal noted, the goal of informing the community. Part of this involves cutting through the opacity of the different institutions of the college, whether it's Campus Safety or Student Senate or whatever. The purpose of this page, as I understand it, was to act as a sort of clearinghouse for concerns about Campus Safety misconduct. As the original proposal for deletion (and the related comments added to the content page) suggests, some and perhaps all of the allegations lack firm evidence. The onus of providing that evidence rests on the original posters; that they did not provide it is not surprising (given the nature of the forum and of the institutional disadvantage at which those subject to institutional sanction by law enforcement are placed with regard to evidence of misconduct) but it is also not required. I think the contributor who proposed deletion rebutted the allegations with great vigor, and that is the sort of thing that this page, in my mind, should include: not merely allegations, but a critical reflection, both on the allegations and on those against whom these things are alleged. Indeed, the Code of Ethics from which the proposer quoted does not really handle this directly; but that document, like everything else on this site, is subject to critical reflection and reform (that's the point of a wiki format). I think it's obvious that the page in discussion here needs to be more strongly disclaimed to ensure that these are taken merely as the allegations of those who post, and not as claims substantiated through TWF or Knox College administration. I think also that it should be reformatted as a discussion-like page, where there is an existing position under each allegation for rebuttal, discussion, and the like. I do not think, however, that it should be deleted, because it provides precisely the kind of forum that Knox needs on issues that are difficult to discuss within the existing institutional framework. I also think that the Code of Ethics should be revised to incorporate this type of discourse and content page and provide guidelines for its management. What does everybody else think? [[User:Camozzi|Camozzi]] 20:56, 14 June 2008 (CDT) | ||
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(Note: Sorry for the length and any redundancy, confusion, or failures in my editing. I'm going to admit that while I apparently write at length, I'm no writer and that I don't really intend to review this now that I've worn myself out writing it--okay, not much, anyway). | (Note: Sorry for the length and any redundancy, confusion, or failures in my editing. I'm going to admit that while I apparently write at length, I'm no writer and that I don't really intend to review this now that I've worn myself out writing it--okay, not much, anyway). | ||
− | + | ===Re:Re:=== | |
It is perhaps true that, if this page continues to exist, there will be allegations of differing levels of merit. I will grant, even, that it may be difficult to tell meritorious from not if there is not sufficient analysis of the allegations. But we might draw a parallel to the Campus Safety Log in this instance. Dozens of notes describe things that students are alleged to have done, and these are published weekly. To look at the CSL every week may, in fact, be detrimental to people's opinions of the student body in the long run. It may keep prospective students from coming here. Moreover, what is written in the CSL consists largely of allegations - there is no evidence provided to support what Campus Safety tells us happened, and so it is impossible for the community to tell which are true and which are not. Having been myself wrongfully cited by Campus Safety, I am well aware that I am not in a position to tell TKS to retract the particular incident report after it has already been printed. | It is perhaps true that, if this page continues to exist, there will be allegations of differing levels of merit. I will grant, even, that it may be difficult to tell meritorious from not if there is not sufficient analysis of the allegations. But we might draw a parallel to the Campus Safety Log in this instance. Dozens of notes describe things that students are alleged to have done, and these are published weekly. To look at the CSL every week may, in fact, be detrimental to people's opinions of the student body in the long run. It may keep prospective students from coming here. Moreover, what is written in the CSL consists largely of allegations - there is no evidence provided to support what Campus Safety tells us happened, and so it is impossible for the community to tell which are true and which are not. Having been myself wrongfully cited by Campus Safety, I am well aware that I am not in a position to tell TKS to retract the particular incident report after it has already been printed. | ||
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Now, as you have said, there is not enough information about Campus Safety's procedures available, and that may well weaken any arguments made one way or another about Campus Safety conduct. I, for one, would love to see all that information posted on The Wiki Fire; if there are any governing documents for Campus Safety conduct, I would be more than happy to take personal charge of formatting and posting them in this public forum. I am assuming, by the nature of your contributions, that you are either a member of Campus Safety or very closely affiliated therewith, so I imagine it will not be difficult for you to provide these documents and data. [[User:Camozzi|Camozzi]] 22:11, 15 June 2008 (CDT) | Now, as you have said, there is not enough information about Campus Safety's procedures available, and that may well weaken any arguments made one way or another about Campus Safety conduct. I, for one, would love to see all that information posted on The Wiki Fire; if there are any governing documents for Campus Safety conduct, I would be more than happy to take personal charge of formatting and posting them in this public forum. I am assuming, by the nature of your contributions, that you are either a member of Campus Safety or very closely affiliated therewith, so I imagine it will not be difficult for you to provide these documents and data. [[User:Camozzi|Camozzi]] 22:11, 15 June 2008 (CDT) | ||
− | + | ===Re:Re:Re:?=== | |
I'll try to keep this one short (though I don't know how likely that's going to be), as I'm a little tired, but I'll try to address some of what you've mentioned (I'll be going point-by-point, to an extent, though I may jump around just a little). | I'll try to keep this one short (though I don't know how likely that's going to be), as I'm a little tired, but I'll try to address some of what you've mentioned (I'll be going point-by-point, to an extent, though I may jump around just a little). | ||
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</nowiki> | </nowiki> | ||
− | + | == More stuff to think about == | |
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Hi, all. I don't have internet in my place yet, so the regularity of my comments might be lacking. But here goes. | Hi, all. I don't have internet in my place yet, so the regularity of my comments might be lacking. But here goes. | ||
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This is pretty important, I feel. For all the fighting for free press lately, this really pushes things. I like it. [[User:Tfooq|Tfooq]] 13:06, 16 June 2008 (CDT) | This is pretty important, I feel. For all the fighting for free press lately, this really pushes things. I like it. [[User:Tfooq|Tfooq]] 13:06, 16 June 2008 (CDT) | ||
+ | == re: alleged misconduct == | ||
− | + | "I would imagine the best and probably only legitimate means by which you might be able to obtain any information regarding the policies and procedures surrounding Campus Safety would be to act through the office of the Director of Campus Safety, or possibly someone above him." | |
+ | i find it incredibally bias to assume that the only "objective information" would be obtain by the organization that is commiting misconduct. Right, because campus safety is going to so "oh I'm sorry guys, we were on a power trip that day, next time instead of calling the police on drunk students or those making political statement, we will actually focus on making camous safer by focusiing on Knox's sexual assault problem." | ||
− | + | to say that the director of campus sftey is the one who as the last word on what is relaible information cuts off any discussion from students perspectives. what about those students who do feel harassed and policed by campus safety? the wikifire functions as a way to get that side of the story too, hgence remaining objective that there is more than one opinion about campus safetly, as well as providing information that this is a discussion on Knox campus. | |
− | + | ==Re: x4== | |
+ | I'll just say a couple of things. The Wiki Fire is meant to be a community forum, and as such it is only good as its users. If we provide this particular page and our contributors either do not use it or do not use it well, that is the hazard of a wiki. Deleting this page because it has the potential for not being the ideal forum to address the Campus Safety issue is an authoritarian response inconsistent with the spirit of wikis, in my view, and one that I'm not prepared to take without community approval thereof. Furthermore, as a public figure (at the very least within the context of the Knox community) there is a greater allowance for accounts of events to be published that are not complimentary. If the accounts are malicious, then of course they should be removed as libelous and contrary to the needs of Knox and the wiki. But if they are just difficult for some to hear, that is not enough. | ||
− | + | As to whether the allegations are supported or not or true or not and what the power of assumption is and so on and so forth, we all know what "innocent until proven guilty" means. If it would address some of the concerns discussed here, and if others agree, I would be glad to reformat the page to a neutral "Campus Safety Experiences" where people can post both allegations of misconduct and of proper conduct. Maybe that will keep our dumb readers guessing, eh? | |
− | + | As the previous contributor notes, limiting discussion on alleged misconduct to channels controlled wholly by the organization alleged to have committed the misconduct is obviously disadvantageous to those with legitimate concerns to report (especially when Campus Safety is such a small and cohesive group). I think we should be proud to offer an open and transparent alternative to opaque institutional lobbying, and I think we should be discussing how to make this forum as good as it can be, not whether or not we should allow alternative forums to exist in the first place. [[User:Camozzi|Camozzi]] 13:33, 16 June 2008 (CDT) | |
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