Editing Talk:Alleged Campus Safety Misconduct
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− | == A page for baseless allegation? == | + | === A page for baseless allegation? === |
It seems someone else edited this article before I could type this or make my own edit (and the editing needs to be worked on a bit, in fact--it's stylistically all over the place), but what's the point of this entry? Is there some justifiable reason to document a list of unsubstantiated, baseless allegations just to have "a different spin?" "Spin" is, of course, precisely the appropriate term, it seems to me. | It seems someone else edited this article before I could type this or make my own edit (and the editing needs to be worked on a bit, in fact--it's stylistically all over the place), but what's the point of this entry? Is there some justifiable reason to document a list of unsubstantiated, baseless allegations just to have "a different spin?" "Spin" is, of course, precisely the appropriate term, it seems to me. | ||
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I'm recommending this article for deletion, and I urge you to strongly consider that recommendation. | I'm recommending this article for deletion, and I urge you to strongly consider that recommendation. | ||
− | ===Discussion on deletion proposal=== | + | ====Discussion on deletion proposal==== |
Obviously this is going to require the weighing-in of more of the community than just me before any action is taken (Guys? Weigh in.), but I'll offer my perspective. The Wiki Fire was not created to be some innocuous toy - that should be made clear. The Wiki Fire has, as the original proposal noted, the goal of informing the community. Part of this involves cutting through the opacity of the different institutions of the college, whether it's Campus Safety or Student Senate or whatever. The purpose of this page, as I understand it, was to act as a sort of clearinghouse for concerns about Campus Safety misconduct. As the original proposal for deletion (and the related comments added to the content page) suggests, some and perhaps all of the allegations lack firm evidence. The onus of providing that evidence rests on the original posters; that they did not provide it is not surprising (given the nature of the forum and of the institutional disadvantage at which those subject to institutional sanction by law enforcement are placed with regard to evidence of misconduct) but it is also not required. I think the contributor who proposed deletion rebutted the allegations with great vigor, and that is the sort of thing that this page, in my mind, should include: not merely allegations, but a critical reflection, both on the allegations and on those against whom these things are alleged. Indeed, the Code of Ethics from which the proposer quoted does not really handle this directly; but that document, like everything else on this site, is subject to critical reflection and reform (that's the point of a wiki format). I think it's obvious that the page in discussion here needs to be more strongly disclaimed to ensure that these are taken merely as the allegations of those who post, and not as claims substantiated through TWF or Knox College administration. I think also that it should be reformatted as a discussion-like page, where there is an existing position under each allegation for rebuttal, discussion, and the like. I do not think, however, that it should be deleted, because it provides precisely the kind of forum that Knox needs on issues that are difficult to discuss within the existing institutional framework. I also think that the Code of Ethics should be revised to incorporate this type of discourse and content page and provide guidelines for its management. What does everybody else think? [[User:Camozzi|Camozzi]] 20:56, 14 June 2008 (CDT) | Obviously this is going to require the weighing-in of more of the community than just me before any action is taken (Guys? Weigh in.), but I'll offer my perspective. The Wiki Fire was not created to be some innocuous toy - that should be made clear. The Wiki Fire has, as the original proposal noted, the goal of informing the community. Part of this involves cutting through the opacity of the different institutions of the college, whether it's Campus Safety or Student Senate or whatever. The purpose of this page, as I understand it, was to act as a sort of clearinghouse for concerns about Campus Safety misconduct. As the original proposal for deletion (and the related comments added to the content page) suggests, some and perhaps all of the allegations lack firm evidence. The onus of providing that evidence rests on the original posters; that they did not provide it is not surprising (given the nature of the forum and of the institutional disadvantage at which those subject to institutional sanction by law enforcement are placed with regard to evidence of misconduct) but it is also not required. I think the contributor who proposed deletion rebutted the allegations with great vigor, and that is the sort of thing that this page, in my mind, should include: not merely allegations, but a critical reflection, both on the allegations and on those against whom these things are alleged. Indeed, the Code of Ethics from which the proposer quoted does not really handle this directly; but that document, like everything else on this site, is subject to critical reflection and reform (that's the point of a wiki format). I think it's obvious that the page in discussion here needs to be more strongly disclaimed to ensure that these are taken merely as the allegations of those who post, and not as claims substantiated through TWF or Knox College administration. I think also that it should be reformatted as a discussion-like page, where there is an existing position under each allegation for rebuttal, discussion, and the like. I do not think, however, that it should be deleted, because it provides precisely the kind of forum that Knox needs on issues that are difficult to discuss within the existing institutional framework. I also think that the Code of Ethics should be revised to incorporate this type of discourse and content page and provide guidelines for its management. What does everybody else think? [[User:Camozzi|Camozzi]] 20:56, 14 June 2008 (CDT) | ||
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(Note: Sorry for the length and any redundancy, confusion, or failures in my editing. I'm going to admit that while I apparently write at length, I'm no writer and that I don't really intend to review this now that I've worn myself out writing it--okay, not much, anyway). | (Note: Sorry for the length and any redundancy, confusion, or failures in my editing. I'm going to admit that while I apparently write at length, I'm no writer and that I don't really intend to review this now that I've worn myself out writing it--okay, not much, anyway). | ||
− | + | ===Re:Re:=== | |
It is perhaps true that, if this page continues to exist, there will be allegations of differing levels of merit. I will grant, even, that it may be difficult to tell meritorious from not if there is not sufficient analysis of the allegations. But we might draw a parallel to the Campus Safety Log in this instance. Dozens of notes describe things that students are alleged to have done, and these are published weekly. To look at the CSL every week may, in fact, be detrimental to people's opinions of the student body in the long run. It may keep prospective students from coming here. Moreover, what is written in the CSL consists largely of allegations - there is no evidence provided to support what Campus Safety tells us happened, and so it is impossible for the community to tell which are true and which are not. Having been myself wrongfully cited by Campus Safety, I am well aware that I am not in a position to tell TKS to retract the particular incident report after it has already been printed. | It is perhaps true that, if this page continues to exist, there will be allegations of differing levels of merit. I will grant, even, that it may be difficult to tell meritorious from not if there is not sufficient analysis of the allegations. But we might draw a parallel to the Campus Safety Log in this instance. Dozens of notes describe things that students are alleged to have done, and these are published weekly. To look at the CSL every week may, in fact, be detrimental to people's opinions of the student body in the long run. It may keep prospective students from coming here. Moreover, what is written in the CSL consists largely of allegations - there is no evidence provided to support what Campus Safety tells us happened, and so it is impossible for the community to tell which are true and which are not. Having been myself wrongfully cited by Campus Safety, I am well aware that I am not in a position to tell TKS to retract the particular incident report after it has already been printed. | ||
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Now, as you have said, there is not enough information about Campus Safety's procedures available, and that may well weaken any arguments made one way or another about Campus Safety conduct. I, for one, would love to see all that information posted on The Wiki Fire; if there are any governing documents for Campus Safety conduct, I would be more than happy to take personal charge of formatting and posting them in this public forum. I am assuming, by the nature of your contributions, that you are either a member of Campus Safety or very closely affiliated therewith, so I imagine it will not be difficult for you to provide these documents and data. [[User:Camozzi|Camozzi]] 22:11, 15 June 2008 (CDT) | Now, as you have said, there is not enough information about Campus Safety's procedures available, and that may well weaken any arguments made one way or another about Campus Safety conduct. I, for one, would love to see all that information posted on The Wiki Fire; if there are any governing documents for Campus Safety conduct, I would be more than happy to take personal charge of formatting and posting them in this public forum. I am assuming, by the nature of your contributions, that you are either a member of Campus Safety or very closely affiliated therewith, so I imagine it will not be difficult for you to provide these documents and data. [[User:Camozzi|Camozzi]] 22:11, 15 June 2008 (CDT) | ||
− | + | ===Re:Re:Re:?=== | |
I'll try to keep this one short (though I don't know how likely that's going to be), as I'm a little tired, but I'll try to address some of what you've mentioned (I'll be going point-by-point, to an extent, though I may jump around just a little). | I'll try to keep this one short (though I don't know how likely that's going to be), as I'm a little tired, but I'll try to address some of what you've mentioned (I'll be going point-by-point, to an extent, though I may jump around just a little). | ||
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</nowiki> | </nowiki> | ||
− | ===== re: alleged misconduct | + | == More stuff to think about == |
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+ | Hi, all. I don't have internet in my place yet, so the regularity of my comments might be lacking. But here goes. | ||
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+ | First off, I own this site, but it is not really up to me what goes on here. I have about as much power as any "sysop" to change the content (though, I suppose I am the only one who can pull the plug completely). I would also like to make it clear that I am not the publisher of the content of this site. As a wiki is a public forum, I am merely the maintainer of this forum. Each edit is published by the person that submits it, and they take all responsibility for what they write (or post, in the case of images). And really, I don't do much to this site. It kind of takes care of itself. | ||
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+ | This is a very interesting (and timely) issue, actually. It would do everyone well to read about [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikileaks Wikileaks] and look at how that controversial site and this page are fairly similar. Wikileaks is a (supposedly) completely anonymous site for posting secret corporate and governmental documents to the public. It has come under lots of scrutiny by large banks and even Scientology for what has been published on the site. It was even shut down by US Courts once (though the case was thrown out). As of right now, the site is down and I don't know why. Either too much traffic or it got shut down again. | ||
+ | |||
+ | I wrote [http://tfooq.wordpress.com/2008/02/20/defend-wikileaks/ a blog post] about this in February, and it got a comment from Bill Thompson(!!!) a technology columnist for the BBC and a general internet guru. | ||
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+ | '''This''' is a pretty controversial issue we've stumbled on here, and I would like as much input as possible to determine how the Wiki Fire community feels about it's existence. I don't go to Knox anymore, so I would like the community to really talk it out. I'll try to get a conversation started, or get more people to come to this page and read what's going on. | ||
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+ | This is pretty important, I feel. For all the fighting for free press lately, this really pushes things. I like it. [[User:Tfooq|Tfooq]] 13:06, 16 June 2008 (CDT) | ||
+ | |||
+ | == re: alleged misconduct == | ||
"I would imagine the best and probably only legitimate means by which you might be able to obtain any information regarding the policies and procedures surrounding Campus Safety would be to act through the office of the Director of Campus Safety, or possibly someone above him." | "I would imagine the best and probably only legitimate means by which you might be able to obtain any information regarding the policies and procedures surrounding Campus Safety would be to act through the office of the Director of Campus Safety, or possibly someone above him." | ||
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to say that the director of campus sftey is the one who as the last word on what is relaible information cuts off any discussion from students perspectives. what about those students who do feel harassed and policed by campus safety? the wikifire functions as a way to get that side of the story too, hgence remaining objective that there is more than one opinion about campus safetly, as well as providing information that this is a discussion on Knox campus. | to say that the director of campus sftey is the one who as the last word on what is relaible information cuts off any discussion from students perspectives. what about those students who do feel harassed and policed by campus safety? the wikifire functions as a way to get that side of the story too, hgence remaining objective that there is more than one opinion about campus safetly, as well as providing information that this is a discussion on Knox campus. | ||
− | + | ==Re: x4== | |
I'll just say a couple of things. The Wiki Fire is meant to be a community forum, and as such it is only good as its users. If we provide this particular page and our contributors either do not use it or do not use it well, that is the hazard of a wiki. Deleting this page because it has the potential for not being the ideal forum to address the Campus Safety issue is an authoritarian response inconsistent with the spirit of wikis, in my view, and one that I'm not prepared to take without community approval thereof. Furthermore, as a public figure (at the very least within the context of the Knox community) there is a greater allowance for accounts of events to be published that are not complimentary. If the accounts are malicious, then of course they should be removed as libelous and contrary to the needs of Knox and the wiki. But if they are just difficult for some to hear, that is not enough. | I'll just say a couple of things. The Wiki Fire is meant to be a community forum, and as such it is only good as its users. If we provide this particular page and our contributors either do not use it or do not use it well, that is the hazard of a wiki. Deleting this page because it has the potential for not being the ideal forum to address the Campus Safety issue is an authoritarian response inconsistent with the spirit of wikis, in my view, and one that I'm not prepared to take without community approval thereof. Furthermore, as a public figure (at the very least within the context of the Knox community) there is a greater allowance for accounts of events to be published that are not complimentary. If the accounts are malicious, then of course they should be removed as libelous and contrary to the needs of Knox and the wiki. But if they are just difficult for some to hear, that is not enough. | ||
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As the previous contributor notes, limiting discussion on alleged misconduct to channels controlled wholly by the organization alleged to have committed the misconduct is obviously disadvantageous to those with legitimate concerns to report (especially when Campus Safety is such a small and cohesive group). I think we should be proud to offer an open and transparent alternative to opaque institutional lobbying, and I think we should be discussing how to make this forum as good as it can be, not whether or not we should allow alternative forums to exist in the first place. [[User:Camozzi|Camozzi]] 13:33, 16 June 2008 (CDT) | As the previous contributor notes, limiting discussion on alleged misconduct to channels controlled wholly by the organization alleged to have committed the misconduct is obviously disadvantageous to those with legitimate concerns to report (especially when Campus Safety is such a small and cohesive group). I think we should be proud to offer an open and transparent alternative to opaque institutional lobbying, and I think we should be discussing how to make this forum as good as it can be, not whether or not we should allow alternative forums to exist in the first place. [[User:Camozzi|Camozzi]] 13:33, 16 June 2008 (CDT) | ||
− | =====Re: Re: alleged misconduct | + | == Against code of ethics, potential libel issues == |
+ | |||
+ | I agree with a lot of what Camozzi has to say; it would be potentially a good thing to have a log of some of the issues with Alleged Campus Safety Miscondict, but I think the overriding guideline here is the [[The Wiki Fire:Code of Ethics]], especially the sections on mood and subjectivity. The reality is this page is informed speculation at best, spurious allegations at worse. As Wiki Fire is a community Web site and not a journalistic source, I think it's probably not a good idea to have this kind of material on the Web site. It is also close to being [[libelous|Libel law]]. This page alleges actions against a person who could possibly have harm come to them and maybe could be identified by the allegation. Since we have no clear evidence that this is true, that that is very precarious to me. I think this would be a great issue for TKS to address after substantial reporting, but not a few people on a Web site. [[User:Vertigo700|Vertigo700]] 13:43, 16 June 2008 (CDT) | ||
+ | |||
+ | ==Another Approach== | ||
+ | Hey folks, I just posted a proposal in [[The Wiki Fire:Lab period#Forum Pages|The Wiki Fire:Lab period]] about separating out discussion-based offerings such as the Alleged Campus Safety Misconduct page from the traditional article offerings, so that the forum can still exist, but clearly as a forum instead of as a supposedly objective article. This diversification would allow, I think, for TWF to diversify its offerings to the community. Let me know what you think over on that page. Thanks! [[User:Camozzi|Camozzi]] 14:03, 16 June 2008 (CDT) | ||
+ | |||
+ | ===Re: Re: alleged misconduct=== | ||
:''i find it incredibally bias to assume that the only "objective information" would be obtain by the organization that is commiting misconduct. Right, because campus safety is going to so "oh I'm sorry guys, we were on a power trip that day, next time instead of calling the police on drunk students or those making political statement, we will actually focus on making camous safer by focusiing on Knox's sexual assault problem."'' | :''i find it incredibally bias to assume that the only "objective information" would be obtain by the organization that is commiting misconduct. Right, because campus safety is going to so "oh I'm sorry guys, we were on a power trip that day, next time instead of calling the police on drunk students or those making political statement, we will actually focus on making camous safer by focusiing on Knox's sexual assault problem."'' | ||
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I was suggesting that if you wanted 'documents and data' about the policies that govern the administration or Campus Safety, that the Director or his superiors are the places from which to acquire them. That's simply fact. I'm not asking you to resort to him for the unbiased details of every incident, in any way. It was a response to one very simple sentence included in one of your previous posts. I'm sorry for any confusion. I'll check back later to see if there's anything else for me to comment on. | I was suggesting that if you wanted 'documents and data' about the policies that govern the administration or Campus Safety, that the Director or his superiors are the places from which to acquire them. That's simply fact. I'm not asking you to resort to him for the unbiased details of every incident, in any way. It was a response to one very simple sentence included in one of your previous posts. I'm sorry for any confusion. I'll check back later to see if there's anything else for me to comment on. | ||
− | + | ==A Heaping Helping of Re:== | |
I have a few more moments to comment. I may have to quote as I go at this point, for fear of losing track of what I'm saying.. | I have a few more moments to comment. I may have to quote as I go at this point, for fear of losing track of what I'm saying.. | ||
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I'm way behind, and I see that you've another idea further down the page. I'll try to review and comment on it as I am able to do so (I see some others have commented, too, thankfully). Thanks again so much for all of your input. I'm very appreciative of your attention to the matter. | I'm way behind, and I see that you've another idea further down the page. I'll try to review and comment on it as I am able to do so (I see some others have commented, too, thankfully). Thanks again so much for all of your input. I'm very appreciative of your attention to the matter. | ||
− | + | ==Re: More Stuff To Think About== | |
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Glad to see you chiming in, [[User:Tfooq|Tfooq]]. I'll start by acknowledging that you're not taking direct control of every facet of this site; I didn't mean to infer that you were doing so, simply that you could and that this site could be whatever its owner so decided it should be. | Glad to see you chiming in, [[User:Tfooq|Tfooq]]. I'll start by acknowledging that you're not taking direct control of every facet of this site; I didn't mean to infer that you were doing so, simply that you could and that this site could be whatever its owner so decided it should be. | ||
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Anyway, thanks for chiming in and I understand your computer issues. And, for your personal information, I have not heard about any further injunctions against Wikileaks and it appears to function properly from here. Take care. | Anyway, thanks for chiming in and I understand your computer issues. And, for your personal information, I have not heard about any further injunctions against Wikileaks and it appears to function properly from here. Take care. | ||
− | + | ==Re: Against code of ethics, potential libel issues== | |
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Thanks for the feedback, [[User:Vertigo700|Vertigo700]], and I generally agree with most of what you've stated (including largely agreeing with Camozzi on a lot of the basic points, despite not sharing some of his conclusions). | Thanks for the feedback, [[User:Vertigo700|Vertigo700]], and I generally agree with most of what you've stated (including largely agreeing with Camozzi on a lot of the basic points, despite not sharing some of his conclusions). | ||
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In fact, I haven't much to add to what you've written, except that I'm not sure this encroaches into libel territory, just yet (certainly, it has the potential to), but--like I said--I'm simply not sure. I doubt it will ever become an actual concern, no matter ''what'' is written on any of these pages, simply because I'm not sure who would be likely to both notice and desire to take any action regarding any given matter--not that this should stop anyone from making sure the pages are free of such material. I also share your sentiment about the potential behind TKS. Take care (I'm typing shorter entries!). | In fact, I haven't much to add to what you've written, except that I'm not sure this encroaches into libel territory, just yet (certainly, it has the potential to), but--like I said--I'm simply not sure. I doubt it will ever become an actual concern, no matter ''what'' is written on any of these pages, simply because I'm not sure who would be likely to both notice and desire to take any action regarding any given matter--not that this should stop anyone from making sure the pages are free of such material. I also share your sentiment about the potential behind TKS. Take care (I'm typing shorter entries!). | ||
− | + | ==Re: Another Approach== | |
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I've only briefly looked this over, [[User:Camozzi|Camozzi]], but I'm interested. I'll have to read it thoroughly and think it over, but right now I'm inclined to think that your idea isn't bad at all. | I've only briefly looked this over, [[User:Camozzi|Camozzi]], but I'm interested. I'll have to read it thoroughly and think it over, but right now I'm inclined to think that your idea isn't bad at all. | ||
− | + | == Re:everything == | |
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As one of the people who contributed to this page originally, I can speak to the intent behind its creation and argue that the allegations within it should remain. I base what follows on two assumptions on which I surmise (and pleas correct me if I'm wrong about this part) we can all agree. | As one of the people who contributed to this page originally, I can speak to the intent behind its creation and argue that the allegations within it should remain. I base what follows on two assumptions on which I surmise (and pleas correct me if I'm wrong about this part) we can all agree. | ||
− | + | ===Burden of Proof=== | |
The first assumption is that there should be a burden of proof for things posted on this page. There is some disagreement as to what that burden of proof is, but we all see the harm in publishing mere rumors as well as the inutility limiting discourse to only those allegations that can be substantiated by campus safety. The requisite burden of proof must therefore lie somewhere in between, and it would seem that the code of ethics does not whether we limit that to the accounts of two named eyewitnesses, published accounts in TKS, or single, anonymous eyewitness accounts. | The first assumption is that there should be a burden of proof for things posted on this page. There is some disagreement as to what that burden of proof is, but we all see the harm in publishing mere rumors as well as the inutility limiting discourse to only those allegations that can be substantiated by campus safety. The requisite burden of proof must therefore lie somewhere in between, and it would seem that the code of ethics does not whether we limit that to the accounts of two named eyewitnesses, published accounts in TKS, or single, anonymous eyewitness accounts. | ||
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I offer, then, the opinion that allegations be published with as much factual support as there is available about them to support their veracity, and that support be the measure of that veracity. Perhaps, then, a disclaimer can be prepended to the page, explaining that inclusion on it should not in and of itself lend credibility to any accusation. While such a move is clearly not sufficient for print journalism, Web 2.0 is a different animal. Think about ratemyprofessor.com -- the burden of proof is nil, and so is its credibility. While I can hope the Wiki Fire has a bit more of each, it's illogical to say that publication on a website implies factuality. | I offer, then, the opinion that allegations be published with as much factual support as there is available about them to support their veracity, and that support be the measure of that veracity. Perhaps, then, a disclaimer can be prepended to the page, explaining that inclusion on it should not in and of itself lend credibility to any accusation. While such a move is clearly not sufficient for print journalism, Web 2.0 is a different animal. Think about ratemyprofessor.com -- the burden of proof is nil, and so is its credibility. While I can hope the Wiki Fire has a bit more of each, it's illogical to say that publication on a website implies factuality. | ||
− | ===== | + | ===Libel=== |
+ | This guideline is clearly not sufficient to limit the abuse of this section with regard to libel. Let's not get our asses sued. It is clear that a well-supported allegation that is verifiably misconduct would not violate libel laws (right? someone back me up here?) in that it would be relevant to campus interests. Thus, if a campus safety officer were to be observed masturbating in the privacy of hir home, it would be ineligible for publication in that it is not misconduct (as well as harmful), whereas if they were masturbating on the job, it would be misconduct (and probably still harmful, but justified). I don't know, I'm tired and I don't know anything about libel except what tom's told me. You all fight it out. Just figure out what libel is defined as so that we can put that in the code of ethics and then argue about whether specific allegations are libelous or not. | ||
− | + | ===conclusion=== | |
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I'm going to suggest that allegations that are not very well supported AND potentially libelous/harmful-without-community benefit be removed, but only after careful scrutiny on this page and on a case-by-case basis. XXXOOO Graham Troyer-Joy | I'm going to suggest that allegations that are not very well supported AND potentially libelous/harmful-without-community benefit be removed, but only after careful scrutiny on this page and on a case-by-case basis. XXXOOO Graham Troyer-Joy | ||
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